Console radio speakers

1

Hi, Vaughn. 

Hear me out on this one.  I have an early 60's Curtis Mathes console stereo I like.  The amp is recapped, the tone-stack converted to a regular Baxandall and I recently put in JJ output tubes (original tubes were tired & microphonic).  Single-ended EL84, maybe 5WPC (and since it's a hi-fi, that's not distorted or saturated power either).  The amp sounds great on the bench.  The original green piezo horn tweeters are acceptable, but the original lightweight 12" AlNiCo woofers leave much to be desired.  They have a dramatic punchy thump on kick drum, but one buzzes on loud passages, and both lack bass and have bad icepick-in-the-ear (cymbal crashes sound like a football field of frying bacon).  I imagine this description sounds common, and I'm thinking WGS can help.   Because I have tweeters and a simple crossover, I don't need sparkling treble response.  I'd actually prefer no treble response above about 2kHz, because it's easier to cross over.  Let's assume sensitivity matching with the tweeters isn't a concern.  I'm looking for  a pair of 12" that will give this old console big, tactile, room filling sound on jazz, oldies, classic rock, & rock- from Bill Evans and Sonny Rollins to McAuley-Schenker Group.  Dynamic, responsive, no breakup, no scoops or peaks in the frequency response, warm but without being overly colored, a clean responsivle midrange- and big.  I'm looking for soul, not perfect audiophile reproduction, and that's why I think WGS might be able to help me.  What would you recommend?  If you were to hook a pair of larger 1x12 cabs to your hifi and play a Dark Side of the Moon LP, what WGS speaker would you want in those cabs?

2

I'm not the expert that Vaughn is, but I do know a *fair* bit about drivers.  And if you really want enjoyable sound reproduction with a hi-fi-ish tube amp, I (personal opinion) think that 99% of guitar speakers would be an awful way to go about this.

Guitar drivers are voiced *heavily* towards those frequencies that guitars are strongest in - 1000-5000Hz.  They are weak below that, and weak above that.  But... this range overlaps greatly with the 2000+ range you're referring to with your horn speakers. 

So, a sharp, over-2000Hz taper really indicates you want a mid-bass speaker or a full-range 12" PA driver.  It would be pretty cool if WGS got into this type of territory, but they really don't right now, and the WGS12L is likely to be as close as one will get.

"warm but without being overly colored" - this is the antithesis of guitar speakers, almost on a universal scale... with notable exception of the EV EVM12L style speakers.  Which as luck may have it... are basically PA drivers.  Guitar speakers sound "honky" with the full frequency band run through them because they're heavily notched, then heavily spiked in the aforementioned frequency ranges.  And, as noted previously, many are extremely deficient below about 200Hz.  That's where a *lot* of action with drums and bass happens to be.  So if by "soul" you mean "want to hear my music like it's being piped through a kazoo", then by all means, guitar speakers are what you're looking for.  :) 

For anybody else on the planet, the Eminence Beta, Kappa, and Delta can be found easily and affordably, and are US-built in Kentucky, just like the WGS products.  :)  I'd personally recommend the Delta Pro 12A or Kappa 12A, depending on how efficient or how bass-heavy you want it.

3

Hi Devin,

I agree with what's already been said ... but ... of course if we go back to the speakers Leo was using in 1950-somthing ... they were the same speakers being used in "hi-fi" and PA systems of the day!

The WGS 12L WOULD be great ... but I doubt you want to spend that kind of money, and have a speaker that HEAVY ... so ... if you do go WGS, I'd give the G12C/S (smooth-cone) a try ... like 1957 in a can :-)

4

Thanks, everyone.  I realize I'm way out of the box here.  Interesting you say G12C/S.  I honestly hadn't considered your American line much before- my preconceived notion of the "American" is heavily scooped with a big, round, uncontrolled bottom end.  Am I way off the reservation here, or is that what I'd get out of the G12C/S?  I'd guess probably not- the .7ish QTS on the C/S is rather ideal for a controlled bottom end compared to, say, an old Jensen (or some of your other offerings) with 1.9 QTS or higher.

Let's come at this from a different angle, and see if it still looks the same.  Forget we're talking about a 60's console radio (and any preconceived notions about console radios), and pretend this is a special modeling amp where bottom end is important and top end is not.  Reaper is a very popular recommendation for modeling amps; what about a Reaper 55?  Would you still recommend a G12C/S for a modeling amp that needs a big bottom end?

I've looked all over the regular speaker distributors and products; everything from GRS and MCM to B&C, including Eminence (I've been reading the Parts Express catalog for 20 years).  Any one of those would plug in & play sound, as would a 70/80 or Blue Marvel in your guitar amp, but that's not why WGS is here, and it's I'm looking at WGS.  Vaughn, you hit the nail on the head- early guitar speakers WERE hifi and PA speakers.  Most didn't stand the test of time for hi-fi (certainly not the old Oxfords in my console right now), but the high-end gear, like JBL, Fane, Goodmans, Altec, etc., are still in demand.  As far as I can tell WGS is chasing those old holy grails, and that's where I want to be (with all the conveniences of new production).  In the context of my living room, Eminence speakers are designed to survive being beaten up in a club all night long.  Heavy cones, stiff suspensions, voice coils wound from Romex on drainpipe (OK, that's an exaggeration, but compare to a 30W Reaper- lightweight cone, light voicecoil, built to sound good vs survive abuse, and ask yourself which you think is going to make you smile when you sit down to listen to it). WGS sells soul.

It's hard to get an apples-to-apples comparison between the sound clips.  To help get you into my head, here's my listening notes for a variety of WGS speakers I thought might work out for my setup:

reaper (107hz, .76q, 13.44Tm) - warm bottom (really feel the higher qtc), pluck & texture
reaper 55 (77hz, .46q, 12.8Tm, 99.6dB, 29.1g) - big & firm bottom, some pluck, articulation
lib 80 (67hz, .56q, 17.53Tm, 97.9dB, 26.7g) - big & forward "wide" midrange. Articulate, but without major texture. Not so bright on dirt; not much "pop" on clean; bright-ish on clean.  Not much bass.   Very "talky" speaker.

reaper hp - high & tight "thummm" bass on palm mute (surprising through mesa DR), less "pop" than reaper. Smooth
 vet 30 (94hz, .74q, 13.25tm, 99.8db) - thick lowend, definite midrange bump
ret 30 (103hz, .7q, 13.8tm, 99.6db - thick lowend, upper mid emphasis (likley hard to XO or baffle step)
inv 50 (82hz, .76q, 12.08tm, 99db) - narrow bandwidth, small-boxy low end.  upper midrange articulation & texture. "Pearl jam" tone.


hm75 - mid-scoop, treble emphasis
greenberet - uppermid-low treble emphasis.  LOUD shredding in that range.
et65 (109Hz, 1.03q, 11.05Tm, 98db, 25g)- warm & chimey, no significant bottom end. palm muting shows versatile boxy upper bass.  Woolly/woody.  Laid back.  Slightly brittle highs. 
et90 (97hz, .59q) - lil brighter & attackier.  Little more bass, little more sensitivity.
 British lead? (95hz,.73, 13.39Tm, 98db) - very bright & scrubby on distortion. Plucky on clean.  high "thumm" on bass.  Bright.  Fender-y, really. Thin w/ spike.
g12cs (99hz, .69q, 12.03tm, 99.5db) - twangy, mid-hump boxy.
g12c - definite mid emphasis.

 

Thanks again, everyone!

5

Yes. probably so ... as long as you need no top!  The Reaper ... as you mentioned ... would be my #2 pick ... probably the stock 75hz cone ... but MAYBE the 55Hz cone...   And yes, they are quite fine coils wound on paper formers.  I like your "romex on a drainpipe" reference ... made me laugh!